Sorry for the long delay in replying back. Here I am posting the e-mail reply given by Ken Cascio, the Webmaster of http://www.wickedshepherds.com himself in response to your comments regarding the article “Should Pastors be cared for?”.

Many thanks to Ken for his prompt response to my e-mail:

Here is Ken’s reply:

____

Commenter,

After reading just your first sentence, it is obvious that you did not heed the warning in big letters at the beginning of the article:

WARNING: NOT FOR THE TIMID

So, just in your first sentence, I am “rather venomous;” “a poor man with an axe to grind;” I have “a tendency to cloud clear thought and accurate exegesis of scripture;” and that you are “almost sick from reading my angry words.”

Really?

Commenter, I seriously doubt if you even read the WHOLE article. This is the case for many people. You glanced over and read a few snippets that stirred you and troubled you, not because it was an inaccurate exegesis of scripture or that I tried to cloud clear thought, etc., but because you could not contradict what was said with the Scriptures.

It is clear to even a fool that there is quoted a plethora of Scriptures in that article, as well as comments from other respected writers.

Scriptures back up what we speak.

Every single one of your nonsensical rebuttals is refuted in the article. As I stated in the body of that article, “if you can read all of these verses of Scripture presented in this article and come away with any other conclusion, you are either:

#1) a lazy Christian who refuses to think for themselves or

#2) a “pastor/elder” with a vested interest to protect.

Which one are you? Maybe a little bit of both perhaps?

I know what I have done and I understand your mental anguish and emotional turmoil because what I have done in that article is smash the nose right off of one of your favorite idols of the heart. But really, your frustration is toward God and God’s TRUTHS, and God handles abuse better than I do.

This is not a Christian article – it is vindictive, hostile and ungodly, and you suggest we pray for this man.

Again…Really? You would probably act the same way and say the same words to Jesus if you were living back then. He condemned the religious leaders and scholars of His day with language that I didn’t even come close to. Have you ever read Matthew 23? Or how about the money changers?

I am sure that those who loved their Pharisees and church leaders in Christ day would have made the same remarks toward Jesus as you are making toward me. Yes, you would be right there with them calling Jesus, hostile, vindictive, ungodly, venomous, and a poor man with an axe to grind. Wouldn’t you?

Yes you would! Christians are offended that I would even point out these historical facts of Scripture. They really don’t want to believe Jesus spoke as He did, even though it’s all right there in their Bibles.

You state, “Though there was no hard and fast rule, there were some former Synagogues which were converted for use as a place to assembe.”.

Where? Show me!

“Others no doubt built buildings…” Where? Show me!

In reference to 1 Thess. 2:1-12, (which I go over extensively in the article) you say that Paul did not say that it is a burden to the church to pay someone for teaching…”

WHAT!! That is exactly what Paul said.

Then, you go on to say that “Paul in fact lamented in II Cor. 11 that he did not charge the Corinthians, suggesting that he wronged them by preaching the Gospel free of charge..”

But the fact of the matter is that Paul LAMENTED NOTHING!!! You did not finish the context down to verses 11-15: For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.”

Here, the Apostle Paul implies that it is mostly the “ministers of Satan” who are getting paid to preach the gospel.

Paul also is explaining to the Corinthians the reason as to why he refused to accept any money from them for preaching. Remember, this was so disconcerting to the Corinthians that they thought the Apostle Paul was a phony! “Ministering the word for free?” Even they were scratching their heads. Some of the Corinthians were reasoning that the Apostle Paul must not be a real Apostle, or at least not on the same level as the other Apostles.

Paul explains the reason he refused their money (not to be a burden to them), and also says he’ll continue to refuse their money, more or less daring their (false) Apostles (the “ministers of Satan”) to follow suit.

He knows they won’t – just like the professional paid pastors today also won’t. They will all refuse to “put their money where their mouth is” and instead will continue to pocket money that doesn’t belong to them.

You then say, “Common sense would tell us that Paul was dealing with unconverted or newly converted gentile…. Jews KNEW to give to ministers.”

??????????????????????

And then, here is my rather nefarious quote that apparently struck a nerve:

“The pastor is not a necessity. He is a fungus growth upon the church, the body of Christians, dwarfing its growth…and until the church gets rid of him it will never prosper.”

You respond: “Paul would seem to disagree with him as would Jesus Himself.”

Again, oh really? WHERE???

You said, “Sheep (according to the New Testament) need shepherds…”

YES!! SHEEP ALREADY HAVE A SHEPHERD!!!

“…. and they should not labor at their own expense as Paul also said, “Who goes to war at his own expense”. (What Bible version is that from?) and that you “….believe that scripture clearly states that they (pastors) are in fact necessary and I would be careful about calling someone who God calls and commissions – a fungus growth.”

The Apostle Paul is not talking about “paying your pastor” but of eternal life. Read the context!

What can I say except to say that WHAT YOU BELIEVE DOESN’T MATTER.

Instead, if I were you, I would be VERY CAREFUL when you speak of things you know very little about. This is who God commissions and calls:

For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong; and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are: that no flesh should glory before God.

1 Corinthians 1:26-29

The practice of religious leaders (aka “pastors”) ruling and conquering over God’s people is nothing new and Jesus’ response to that is clear. (Matthew 23 and elsewhere)

Did He accept them? No. Did He respect them? No. Just the opposite. Did He leave them well alone so as not to cause offense? No. Jesus’ tactic was to go against these religious rulers, along with their teachings. He not only did NOT accept them, but He fought against them. He exposed them. He condemned them as evil. He provocatively declared war on them as publicly as He possibly could.

And the Scriptures end with yet another condemnation from Jesus against them. This practice of ruling and exploiting God’s people is in regards to the sin of the Nicolaitans in Revelation 2:6, 15. The word comes from the Greek term “nikao” and “laos” and literally means to “conquer the laity.” There were a few people in Ephesus and Pergamos who did not obey Jesus’ teaching (“AND NOT SO SHALL IT BE AMONG YOU”) and created a clerical class of “Nicolaitans” who set themselves above the people.

And Jesus rebuked them saying He “hates” (Rev. 2:6) the sin of the Nicolaitans and anyone who holds to that practice should “Repent therefore or else I am coming to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.” (Rev. 2:15-16).

Does this mean that there isn’t leadership in the church? No, there is leadership, but not the kind like you have today. There are plenty articles about leadership on the site. Check them out. The point is that those who are practicing these abominations are sinning in direct violation of Jesus Christ’s commands.

But getting back to that rather nefarious quote, (which I did not originate, by the way) I stand by it 100%. When there’s a bureaucrat (aka “the pastor”) available to do the work that everyday, normal believers used to do, guess what? The everyday, normal believers will stop doing (and learning) the work. Imagine which assembly of believers would be stronger: one in which members are expected to get up and present an intelligent and thoughtful message and participate regularly (like 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14) , or one in which all that’s “left to the paid pastor or teacher” and the members just sit back and get entertained.

Imagine it this way: if you hire a maid to follow your kids around all day to pick up their messes, soon they’ll forget entirely how to do it themselves. Practice makes perfect, and lack of practice makes one mediocre. I’ve spent time in both kinds of assemblies and the ones with the full-time paid preachers are “fat and lazy” compared to the type that rather nefarious quote describes.

Next, you say, “…This really is an abuse of the Bible. The ironic thing is that Paul does in fact call teaching real work in 1 Timothy 5:17.”

DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE?? No. Paul didn’t say in 1 Timothy 5 that teaching is real work!

The issue is NOT: to labor, or not to labor.

The issue is GETTING PAID!!!!!!!

I could continue but I will end for now. Yes, I try to back up my claims with things called SCRIPTURE and other quotes from respected authors. You should try it sometime, instead of just spouting off. The depth of your comment is what I would expect from a drunk Christian at a bar, just shooting from the hip.

Please read the article again, this time with an open mind, praying for the Spirit’s help to see and hear the deep truths presented throughout. Then, perhaps, you will be more inclined to have two full ears rather than one empty mouth.

And, my final advice to you, before you waste anyone’s time with your “rebuttals,” PLEASE take some time to read the article. If your goal is to rebut the article, “Should Pastors Be Cared For?,” which declares the biblical answer to that question, at least have some facts behind what you say. WE ALL DON’T CARE what your feelings are. We all don’t care “what you believe.” We really don’t. We all care what the facts are, and those facts had better be backed up by solid Scriptures.

As you are right now, you’d be laughed out of a courtroom.

Ken Cascio

wickedshepherds.com

If that does not work just copy and paste the following two lines together and put it into your browser address bar.

http://www.youtube.com/

watch?v=oeqR9K21CVY

Or you can go to the video producers page on Youtube by searching at Youtube for Knowwheretorun1984 and search for the video Should Christians Keep the Sabbath?

He also has a video series on the SDA but I have not watched it yet. His name is Chris White and he is an ex-New Ager so he debunks allot of occult related topics but I think most of his regular Christian and Apologetics material is spot on.

I did watch an SDA video about a week ago produced by ex-SDA’s. It was really good. Here it is.

Or paste these two lines together into your broswer

http://www.youtube.com/

watch?v=XmEzDvUbpFQ

If that does not work search for exAdventist on Youtube and see their video entitled, Seventh-day Adventism – The Spirit Behind the Church

I know these cult groups have their spiel down really good and they can leave us a little beguiled and wondering, so I hope these will help you remain firmly grounding in the simplicity of the Gospel. Be blessed and have a great week.

Thanks!
Pat

VIDEO DESCRIPTION: This film is a detailed study of the bible about the concept of the Sabbath. As the Sabbath cannot be full understood without a good understanding of the scriptures this film is also a study on the different covenants in the Bible, such as the Abrahamic and the Mosaic. This is a study for every Christian, not just people concerned about the Sabbath, as it is the story of the Gospel. I hope it will help you understand the plan of God more and praise Him for His goodness to us.

Last weekend, I got into an argument with my step mother’s friend (a seventh day adventist). Now, you talk about a wacky religion, and of course, they know the only true way! LOL Don’t they all! Nothing like prideful man to distort the unconditional love of Christ

There’s no doubt you get a lot of vicious mail from folks who are CONVINCED they are right. It is surely sad to witness what man has done to a simple Gospel message. …Jesus must weep for his burdened sheep.

Anyway, thank you, thank you for being there for people like me who have been led astray and are fighting to regain the peace we had when we were first saved….when it was simple. God bless you, my brother.

1dayphoto, you sound like you must be ex-WoF. Walter Martin, in his legendary book on cults has a chapter on the psychology of cults and I have been thinking about writing an article about the psychology behind the WoF.

Martin list things like many Christian Scientist know Mary Baker Eddy went to many doctors in her old age because of illness and even had all her teeth pulled when they went bad but they still think pain and suffering is an illusion and most won’t go to doctors themselves because of her teachings. And some WoFers know that Kenneth Hagin said on numerous occasions that he would live to be 120 and that when he left this world it would not be because of illness – he said he would just release his spirit to God – but they still follow his teachings and deny their sickness because admitting it would be a lack of faith and they think it would cause more sickness. I was going to take that tact in my article – if I ever get around to writing it – but maybe I should also try to touch on the things WoF will drive a person to do and lust after, like you have listed. That was a really great comment. TY for reading and liking post here.

Pat, I have heard so many ex-WoFers say they got into the WoF because they wanted power to control their lives and things but I don’t remember any saying it was because they wanted to be God. But that’s what the WoF and wanting all that power amounts to. So glad you can see that. I hope one day you will find complete healing and will be able to forgive yourself for feeling as all of us do. A few days back 1dayPhoto above liked the testimony of ex-WoF pastor John Edwards wife and I re-read it. In it she details how abusive the WoF – especially pastors – can be and how they where taught to be abusive to others when they ran their WoF church. I’ve always admired John and Coni because they had allot of struggle to get past their own pain and the pain they cased others. Somehow they still managed to hold onto faith, and last I heard had eventually found a little church that they liked. That’s amazing to me because some ex-WoFers swear they will never never go to another church again – even after they have been out for a long time. And I’ve never heard of one that left the WoF and just jumped into another church and not had issues struggling with their faith. They have all told me they had to detox and doctrinally “reprogram” themselves towards orthodox doctrine – and most importantly to forgive themselves. Have a great day ma’am and TY for sharing here.

Here is Coni’s testimony if you would like to read it.

http://thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog.com/2010/03/17/ex-word-of-faith-testimony-of-coni-edwards-john-edwards-wife/

I have struggled with depression since I was little too as I have always had a melancholic temperament. Not all of are wired as extroverts. And being a fat kid that got picked on allot did not help. And it got much worse after my wreck and so many life tragedies.

After my wreck I was looking for God because I had an angel experience when I came out of the coma. After I studied with my uncle who was a Mormon bishop and the Mormon missionaries I ended up in a charismatic church that was going WoF. I later learned the pastors son was going to Rhema Bible Training Center around that time and he pastors that church now, so I imagine it’s much worse. I asked them upfront if someone had to speak in tongues to be saved and they said no. But with these churches you get mixed messages. It was always taught from the pulpit that there was this second blessing and greater experience and sometimes it seemed he was inferring that non-tounge speakers where not saved – but he never said it. So I started gathering with them for bible study a couple of times a week hoping I would “catch it” but I never did. Then one day they told me I was not yet saved and I mimicked one of those cowboy and indian shows I had just seen – the kind where the indians are not speaking a real language but gibberish – because I wanted to be accepted by the group. I felt so bad because I knew I had faked it and fell into a massive depression , because of other things too, that lasted for two years. And when I came out of it you could still run me off by bringing up God. And it was about 10 years before I ever donned the doors of another church – and it darn sure was not a charismatic church or Wof church because by that time I started studying the occult – because Mormon founder Joseph Smith was a freemason and when I studied that it lead me to study the occult – so I knew the WoF confession stuff is witchcraft and the tongues and other charismatic stuff is occultic.

I eventually got into debating online and that lead to people attacking me often and I’ve been told around ten times that my bi-polar like illness is demonic possession and I was suffering from a demonic curse on my family. And some WoF guys at my work told me, in such a nasty and haughty fashion, the same and said I needed to get saved. I tried about a dozen mainline churches and they put me off and kinda just did not accept me because when they would ask what I do – as in kind of work – and when I would tell them I was on disability because of a bi-polar like illness from a car wreck head injury, they just did not accept me. I did finally find a good church though and joined the little SBC baptist congregation. Been a member there and going off and on for about 5 years now and no one has ever asked me what I do for a living. And the pastor has sat and listened to my whole story and the congregation has been very gracious when I have not been as nice as I could have been a couple of times because sometimes I get very very irritable. It’s not perfect but it’s the closest church I have seen that is more like a hospital for the hurting than a good old boys club. It’s small and full of country folk, maybe that made the difference.

One thing I can suggest is study of general apologetics – reasons why the Christian faith is true and Jesus is real. It’s no exaggeration for me to say I have literally spend tens of thousand of hours thinking about killing myself. That’s how bad my depressions are and when I get depressed it feels like there is no possible way there is a God who cares. But when I get on my highs I feel the exact opposite. When in those depressions – and it feels that Jesus is so far away and has turned His back on me – it sure helps to know that Biblical faith is not faith without evidence and there is much evidence for the Bible’s truthfulness, the existence of God and that Jesus really existed in our history. Things like manuscript evidence, church history, the early church fathers writings, extra-biblical proofs that Jesus lived among us and good logical arguments for the existence of God sure has helped me weather those raging storms – that and remembering that “this too shall pass and one day the sun will shine on me again” like it always has when my mood swings the other way.

I’d like to suggest a great book for you. It’s called Know What You Believe/Know Why You Believe by Paul Little. You can get an old copy online with both books together or you can get them by themselves with updated scientific material. If you can get only one I suggest the Know Why You Believe one. When those depressions come and I have lost my faith – it sure helps to know why I believed in the first place.

Take good care ma’am and have a blessed week.

There’s no limit…..in that ‘window of PC’ and to what it will open…..UP. Beware!!!!! There will be a flood-gate to so many sins…..

Then the most heart-breaking….realization:

You have lost your first love.. your abiding love for God….and…. for the Lost Souls of this World….. and you no longer care for ‘others’ but….always…now…

YOU put YOURSELF ‘BEFORE’ ALL…THINGS….. even ‘before’ God Himself, and you find….that your have lost your soul!

My God, help those who believe in Positive Confession…to have their eyes opened to THE TRULY BIG PICTURE…for what does it profit man if he gain the whole world and loose his….own soul???? God forbid!

When Simon Peter declared to Jesus “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God!” the Lord told him that this was revealed to him by the Father-
The cults and false religions do not come to the correct knowledge of Christ because the only the Holy Spirit can give true revelation of who Jesus is “For He will testify of Me!” Jn 15:26

Down thru history, many within the church have preached “a different gospel, a different Jesus and a different spirit” 2 Cor 11:4

to the jews of Jesus’ day he was a ‘stumbling block and an offense’
a demon possessed false Messiah’…WRONG!

to the sect of the Ebionites he was only a human being with the Christ spirit upon him whos human father was Joseph…WRONG!

to the Gnostics he was a non physical fanthom…WRONG!

to the Arians he was the first created being, a lesser deity..WRONG!

to others hes a shape-shifter Jesus whos his own father, son & holy spirit whenever it suits him..WRONG!

to some he is the “spirit-brother” of Lucifer, the devil..WRONG!!

and the list goes on…now hes a Satan possessed, born-again sinner… WRONG!

JESUS CHRIST is the Eternal self existing one, there was never a time when he didn’t exist “In the Beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God!” John 1:1
the literal Virgin born Son of God, who became human and dwelt amongst us John 1:14
“Who commited NO sin, nor did any deceit come out of his mouth”
1 Pet 2:22
Christ said “….Satan has nothing in me!” Jn 14:30 (no relation!)

He is the only way (not the way shower) to God the Father
“For there is no other name given under heaven by whom men can be saved” Acts 4:12
“For if you do not believe that I Am he, you will die in your sins!”
Jn 8:24
“He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself, he who does not believe has made GOD a lair, BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED THE TESTIMONY THAT GOD HAS GIVEN OF HIS SON”
1 John 5:10
This is the true CHRIST of scripture!

I am moving and will not be back online for a week or two but when I get back I still plan on writing an article on this subject and will for sure use or keep in mind the great points you have brought up here brother. THANKS AGAIN.

Jude (the Lords brother) warned that “Certain men crept in unawares…turning the grace of God into lewdness..” v.4 He characterized them as “Sensual (worldly) persons ‘without the Spirit’ that cause divisions” v.19

They ‘came in under the radar’ thru the charismatic door because they equated Experience over the Word of God; the apostle Peter had “bragging rights” hand picked by Jesus, saw Moses & Elijah, healed people, resurrected the dead, but Simon Peter said “We have the Sure Word confirmed..” 2 Pet 1:19 By stating that he said the Scriptures are the final authority!

Theres no correct cohesive doctrine of the Holy Spirit within WoF circles, thats why “anything goes” unchecked, thats why the most outrageous behavior, manifestations & teachings go unchallenged, the listeners neglected to “Not to believe every spirit, but test the Spirits to see if they are of God…1 Jn 4:1

These perpetrators have made themselves Surrogate Christs and conned the people into believing they are the mediators between themselves and God…. but the scriptures say, “But the anointing which you have received from HIM dwells within you and you do not need (soley depend) on any one to instruct you, but the same anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true and not a lie, just as it has taught you, you abide in HIM” 1 John 2:27

I have yet to hear these WORDS (pun intended) come out of a Word of Faith preachers mouth!…

This does two things, it belittles and mocks the poor and alleviates the guilt of the rich for surely they do not have an obligation to care for the needs of those who lack such faith.

Obviously this is not taught as blatantly as this but it is the logical conclusion to the doctrine. The Prosperity Gospel is nothing more than materialistic clap trap that fits in with the New Age philosophy of witchcraft akin to books like The Secret.

Our God came for the broken and the lost. He loves those who are struggling and we can share in His ministry by being a part of loving those who are less fortunate than us. We show our love for God by how we treat our fellow men and women. Nobody who truly loves God can love things more than people.

The Prosperity Gospel is a tool of Satan to blind God’s people to the truth and it is an insidious method of fooling good people into forgetting what is really important.