Do not worry, Damon, I totally agree with the point you were making. Major errors must be exposed by voicing and the people who teach the errors repeatedly (not as a mere single mistake at one occasion) giving an impression as if it is the truth must be identified so that the simples become aware of the danger and remind them of what the Bible says. This is healthy and gives them opportunities to go back to the Bible. It is not a personal attack.

I don’t disagree with everything in what Paul Coughlin was talking about. Again, I always test with what the Bible really says. Sometimes I can be too cautious and get the message wrong. But when I question what ever speakers say, I always learn from the Bible, not from the person or book. For example, I have learned that NIV changed the translation in Psalm 8:4-6. ‘he’ was replaced with ‘they’, suggesting general human beings. However, in Hebrews 2:6-10 quote the same scriptures and clearly talking about Jesus. I am confused (my Bibles are NKJV and NASV, you see?) to be honest. I will have to sort it out for myself (so thank you for giving me the opportunity to study the Bible).

I haven’t read his book ‘No More Christian Nice Guy’ so I cannot say critiques in a definite manner. I just picked up some elements that could go a deviation of scriptures. Christian authors often use just a few scriptures and mislead the readers to their own preferable opinions or views. Readers who don’t check in the Bible often do not realize it is ideas from the world. I often find this tendency even in sermons in local evangelical churches, which override what the Bible really saying.

Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other. (1 Cori 4:6)

Interestingly, I came across a book review that pointed out Paul Coughlin’s scriptural weakness. It explained to me why I was uncomfortable although I agreed the overall message.

http://www.svchapel.org/resources/book-reviews/4-christian-living/723-no-more-christian-nice-guy-by-paul-coughlin-minneapolis-bethany-house-2005-224-pp-paper-1399-

However, they all recognize the need of strength in Christian men. The writer just suggests the danger of not being equipped with scriptures well.

I very agreed the scriptures the writer suggested (1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1) and these scriptures simply covers all the quality Christian men would need. The Bible already has taught us in this matter. It is already there. Why Christian men need a book to learn this? To me, it looks lack of good Bible teaching in church including ‘how to study the Bible’. That’s all.

But I know you wanted to show it through the video, which is helpful to appeal to our eyes and ears. We are living in such a technological time. So please do not get me wrong. I agree again the overall message in terms of voicing against untruth and oppression against the truth.

I just want to thank you because of the opportunity to learn. I do not shut myself out according to my preferences unlike RJ. I see, listen, and read to exercise my discernment. And I enjoy it.

God bless you and your work.

Rahab

Thanks for the insightful comment again. As to the first video you watched, it sound like there is allot to disagree with on it. I would have to watch it, as this was the first time I seen or heard of the guy in the video you later watched. I subscribe to a few YouTube channels and I received that video in my inbox after I recieved RJ’s last comment (who has not commented again) and I thought it was pretty appropriate for the situation and to post for RJ. I got so excited about it that I suggested it to you when it probably was not all that important and appropriate to you. But I hope it was worth your time.

I sometimes wonder what bible people are reading to live their Christian life under the tyranny of niceness. Scripture calls us to make Spiritual warfare, that isn’t very nice. Scripture call us to earnestly contend for the faith,, and that isn’t all that nice neither. If we do what Jesus and Paul did, we must name names and call out false teachers,,, that isn’t nice but it is biblical. What I liked about the video I posted that it showed you can be good and not be tyrannized by the necessity of niceness.

Sorry about not approving your comment for so long. I took a few days off from the computer. I hope to hear from you again cause I appreciate your desire to be biblical in all things. The Word of God has to be our measuring rod for all things in our Christian life and walk,, especially our doctrine.

1 Tim 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Thank you for telling me about the video. However, that URL doesn’t seem exist anymore. It may have been removed I guess?

Instead, I watched his ‘standing up to school bullies’ on You tube. Over all, I agreed the point that we should intervene and protect the weak. However, several points made me question.

He quoted ‘Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!’ as Isaiah 8 but it is actually from Psalm 8. He used the scripture to explain we are valuable. However, This passage is about Jesus and not us as a mere human being. Because the following scripture says ‘You make him to rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet,’

It is Ok to make a minor mistake because he is not a preacher (I guess?). But as a Christian, human dignity, in another word, self-esteem is opposite, destructive essence to Gospel. We are only valuable because of what Jesus did on the cross. Other than that, we are just wretched. No worth at all.

The guy also said: we get mad when someone treats us poorly because we know we are valuable. If we see someone tries to strip other’s value, we get mad.

Psalm 16:2 says: I say to the LORD, “You are my Lord; I have no good apart from you.”

Scriptures tell me we are all sinners, no worth, stinky, deserve nothing good without Jesus, whether the person has power or not.

Yes, we should be courageous to defend the vulnerable based on our faith that Jesus has conquered the world. Both the bullying and bullied have to know they are sinners. We should defend the weak and vulnerable because we love God and his mind is in us. However, what ever he explains about bullying, to me, it is simply just our SIN. What ever the reason behind, what ever the conditions of the bulling person or the bullied, it all comes from our sin.

Husband can bully his wife, brother can bully his sister, and it could look very subtle. I even was bullied by heavily disabled people who are considered as vulnerable and weak. They are angry about their conditions and most of the cases, they are angry against God. They are vulnerable and feel sorry for the life condition but what makes them so bully is SIN. And they know what is wrong and what is right in their deep within. But they choose to please their flesh. Only way our iniquity can be healed is to repent our sins and believe Jesus can remove our sins. And He convicts our sins through scriptures, not our good conduct itself. If our kind, courageous conduct changes the world, Muslims can do that, too. They are well disciplined.

He also said, ‘four words made into existence’. May be this is nothing to do with WoF but the misuse of scripture from Psalm 8 and the word made me think ‘is this guy influenced by charismatic teaching….? I hope not…..but here and there, I can smell a slight ‘charismatic’ teaching (I may be wrong).

I found the video finally by the way, and watched it. I agreed the majority of the content about men’s character. I think the scriptures used apply to women too. But again a little thing made me wonder….’we want to change the world’ ‘we have a kingship and we should act like that’ but for me, only Jesus is the King. Only Jesus can change the world (through us is inclusive though)….we are his bond servants. We all know this world will be continually messed up until He returns.

I also a bit concerned the way he presented the message….a bit focus on himself and what he did as a person. He could have focus more on Jesus to give Him Glory. Every single act and its result, Jesus is working and involved in it for His glory.

In terms of men’s character, I don’t know from external characters. I know a Christian man who is quite outspoken and externally courageous and strong but he and his wife believed Wof and lost everything, both committed adultery, then divorced.

The key to being courageous I think is to be equipped well with scriptures and stand firm on it, resist anything outside the truth, and die to ourselves. It is OK people treat us badly. God knows it and He is the judge. He gives us grace and strength. If someone else is treated badly, we should simply obey His words. Love God all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

Thank you for the video. I want to speak out scriptures when the situation is relevant to it whether the person will like it or not. Because it is His will.

By the way, you are right, I am woman. Thank you again for your interactions to think over our life matters and search the scriptures. Critical thinking always draw us to scripture search and it is good.

God bless you.

RJ, I think you could really get to know the real Jesus if you watch this video. Jesus was by far not a passive aggresive like you are,, he was no wimp or sissy, he fashioned a whip and used when he needed to. He challenged everyone who stepped out of line. He was the greatest apologist to ever live and never let truth surcumb to un-truth on his watch. He named names of false teaches and those who where cold and ruthless to others names. I ask you to watch the video because I really want the Lord to be able to say to you,,,”well done good and faithful servant” on judgement day,,, instead of you getting scolded and rebuked for your sin of ommison and not contending for the faith as Jesus did and commanded. My desire is for you to become a real Christian man like Jesus was and not have to lose rewards for becoming apostate, not doing what your supposed to do, not doing what the Lord did. Jesus was not a passive sissy or wimp and you should not be neither. I also ask you to consider what kind of soil are you when the seed of the word of God was planted in you and if that seed is still growing, because you have been in the truth before you left for the WoF and you once knew the truth and turned your back on it. Are you the kind of seed that died because of the worries of this world. In other words have you grown to care more about what men think of you than the Lord? I hope you will watch this video and have a paradim shift and be a new you.

FROM THE VIDEO DESCRIPTION “Paul Couglin (author of No More Christian Nice Guy) speaks on the effeminate, nice and passive nature of some Christian men that is destructive to their lives and church. Instead of being nice, Coughlin stresses that men should be good. He shows Christian men are to be faithful, courageous, confrontational, brave, active, loving and protective.”

I have some things to say as I would like to sum up RJ’s methodologies and intent (RJ is not the first RJ I have dealt with) and possibly use that and everyones comments in post to alert some folks to the game Wofers play in a blogpost. So when I get time I will tell you my observations and show the many contradictions in RJ’s comment and tell you and others why RJ won’t be hearing “good and faithful servant” on judgement day.

I am so glad you showed up and are subscribed to the comments here. I hope this blog will be a service to you and others. It has been nice to meet you. You seem to be doctrinally sound and have a love for the Lords Word and it’s authority,,, and I love that about a person. Opinions are like rear ends, everyone has one, so they don’t mean much. It is way early here and I am going back to bed and will comment on RJ’s visit more later.

Thanks and be more blessed
damon

Have you removed RJ’s threads? Now I understand. It is waste of time and energy. They just avoid answering the Biblical questions and boast their superiority.

‘Any mature, wise Christian would do what we did’

‘You never just take another ‘man’ or ‘woman’s’ opinion’

But their writing itself proves they go to pastors and books, not to the Bible. My questions seem to up set him but according to his words, that’s the evidence.

I have leaned more about their behaviors. Though I am sad that my friends are likely be surrounded by this kind of people.

Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you. (Mathew 7:6)

I need to discern the people and the timing to depart with the above scriptures.

Thank you for your work and do not be discouraged. Errors are errors. We need to be alert any ideas or teaching that makes us depart from the Bible.

God bless and get well soon.

Your position is similar to, “the Bible does not talk about dinosaurs because the word ‘dinosaur’ did not exist till’ 1841.” Or, “the Bible does not talk about a theocracy because the word ‘theocracy’ did not exist until 1622.”

Jesus did address homosexuality when he referenced Adam and Eve (and thus His/God’s original plan for man and woman). In fact, Jesus was a young earth creation fundamentalist (Matthew 19:4-6).

I have written extensively on this, you are more than welcome to read my chapter from my book on this topic, or my many posts:

(Chapter) Roman Epicurean’ism: Natural Law vs. Homosexuality:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/32729365/Roman-Epicurean-ism-Natural-Law-and-Homosexuality

Homosexuality-A Christian Ethic?
http://religiopoliticaltalk.com/2010/09/homosexuality-a-christian-ethic/

Homosexuality: Is it good for society? For the individual?
http://religiopoliticaltalk.com/2010/08/homosexuality-is-it-good-for-society-for-the-individual/

Same-Sex Matters (Race and Gender in Marriage)
http://religiopoliticaltalk.com/2010/11/same-sex-matters-race-and-gender-in-marriage/

Some of my debates on the topic:
1) http://religiopoliticaltalk.com/2010/07/debates-about-homosexuality/

2) http://religiopoliticaltalk.com/2011/11/debating-gay-myths-africa-and-aids-not-god/

I think the MORENO DAL BELLO study is not, actually, the best you could refer to although it does have interesting research that I chose to use at the time. I don’t know the author or have any association with him. It was so many years ago, when Word of Faith articles were hard to come by, so I took what I could.

Now there’s much more (including my own research) and you should visit my site and take a look at the section on Word of Faith to see what else there is instead of this. http://www.birthpangs.org/articles-index.html, also take a look at my blog if you’d like to keep up to date with ongoing concerns and posts: http://bannerministries.wordpress.com/

I don’t know of any other groupblog on this topic except this one. If you want to become a groupblog author here I can send you some training videos to help you do that. OR if you would just like to be a guest writer and write every once in awhile you can send your writings to me through the BECOME A GROUPBLOG AUTHOR page and I will post them and credit them to you.

I don’t post here much anymore because I am focusing on Islam but this blog still gets about 400 hits a day and has about 60 subscribers,, so it is here to serve you, other ex-WoFers and seekers. So just let me know if your interested.

About the quote you found. I NEVER seen a deception that was not masked with truth. I have been studying cults for a long time because of my family background,, and I am still concerned I could one day be deceived. I pray the Lord will not allow it but it can happen. I recently almost moved to Michigan to help a Islam exposure ministry and the Lord opened my eyes that they where loosely connected with Bill Johnson’s Bethel Church. I am so thankful to Him!!!

Your response caused me to think over how things went down through those last years in the WoF between my husband Dan and I. One thing worth mentioning is that I remember times when I would come home from a meeting and express “how good” it was and him asking me what I learned. I do think he was sincere in his questioning and I in my excited state would proceed to explain the teaching and as I was telling it, realizing that it didn’t make all that much reasonable sense. Our relationship was certainly not without strife over the church thing, but for the most part I remember him saying he simply didn’t get it. Context of the Word became a big thing with him and I guess when that happens ya have to stop going to WoF all together! After I left, we deprogrammed together, many times being fed truth through teachings on the internet. I found Tricia Tillins testimony on the web and then teachings on the unscriptural mandate of the tithe. That really broke loose the dam!

My deprogamming was radical, messy, crazy and irratic! I think it is because of that time in my life that I am now so interested in trauma care. I have thought about starting a blog, but I guess would rather just join one.

I found this quote today: “Deception is never so good as when it is masked with truth.”

And Damon, thank YOU for caring.

This comment was left on the comments page by Mike Rodgers of closingstages.net

“Comment to Bob Scruggs testimony:
What a wonderful and encouraging testimony. So often the hurt, pain and disillusion that comes with the realization that you’ve been duped and deceived over shadows the actual fact that it was God delivered you out of it in the first place. Thankfully in His grace and mercy He gives us time and space to heal , recover and get our Spiritual bearings. Thanks for sharing this and God bless.”

Please check out Mikes site and if you want to be blessed, take a minute or two to get to know the man and his wonderful wife. You can fellowship on their facebook page or in our recovery forums with us and get to know some of your fellow warriors. I’m sure it would be a mutual pleasure.

I’ll send an alert to you and mike in case you would like to comment on his comment and have more discussion. Take care brother. damon